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Are you kidding? Ask any average person in America if they think Congress should have taxpayer funded health care and they would say "Hell, no".
If you did a poll I would be willing to bet a very large majority of Americans are against taxpayer funded health care for Congress. And I think it is a great idea for John Edwards to beat every Congressman, who will not vote for guaranteed universal health care, with that stick. This is exactly what a real leader does.
What JE is proposing is that he Congress would have to vote on a law that says they can't have taxpayer funded health care until all citizens have health care. And if they vote against it he will go to their state or district, and in a loud voice, ask why they voted for free health care for themselves but against it for their constituents.
Ridiculous, my ass.
by freemark on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:29:44 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
The President himself cannot do it. And you still fail to address the executive branch staff.
When it comes to speaking about the economy Hillary has been doing so all year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCRWiIp46Wc
by EricRSINY on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:37:33 AM PDT
I'm guessing he knows how Congress works. Maybe he already has a few sympathetic friends in Congress ready to introduce such a bill.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace -6.63, -6.97
by amRadioHed on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:42:09 AM PDT
a bill that would take away their health coverage...it would never happen.
by EricRSINY on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 02:29:13 AM PDT
No member would bring to the floor, a bill that would take away their health care coverage...it would never happen.
You're mostly likely correct. That's why you strip the coverage away by Executive Order.
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 02:32:32 AM PDT
Edwards has the guts to do it by Exec. Order. People are so use to pansy Democrats, they can't envision one with guts and an agenda.
Taking our country back better hurry. When there are so many people, even on this blog, that accept corruption and mediocrity as normal and don't believe it can be eliminated, it really points out how much trouble this democracy is in.
Republicans don't have 60 votes, and it doesn't seem to bother them one bit.
by dkmich on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:18:51 AM PDT
When there are so many people, even on this blog, that accept corruption and mediocrity as normal and don't believe it can be eliminated, it really points out how much trouble this democracy is in.
Exactly!
Liberating oppressed people is as much psychological as anything else. Trying to get them to envision NOT being enslaved is a challenge.
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:25:07 AM PDT
Republican't Leadership is a dangerous combination of cut-backs and incompetence.
by casamurphy on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:29:42 AM PDT
Um, Constitution? 27th Amendment, anyone? Article II, for that matter?
Join Me at Netroots Nation: The Next President and the Law
by Adam B on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 06:12:13 AM PDT
We live in unconstitutional times. All the top 3 Democrats implicitly accept this; after all, they all agree that "impeachment's off the table."
Progressives can't selectively choose to heed the law only when it's to our detriment, and then agree that it's okay to violate the law when it benefits the opposition party.
That is insane, but it's the current fashion right now.
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 06:22:00 AM PDT
guess what? It needs to be changed.
"The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg
by grannyhelen on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:17:12 AM PDT
I've heard differing opinions on this, but I'm not sure I've heard your take (and I respect your analysis in this area). Do you think it'd be unconstitutional? Is there anything that could be done that would make it constitutional?
Always be sincere, even if you don't mean it.
by justinb on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 06:42:01 AM PDT
by Adam B on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 06:49:45 AM PDT
or Constitutional schloar, so I don't know about whether or not a President could strip Congress of pay or benefits through executive order. But it seems obvious even to me that as Commander-In-Chief of the armed forces, he could order military medical personnel to provide services to citizens in need.
Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.
by drewfromct on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:28:55 AM PDT
"Power concedes nothing without a demand." -- Frederick Douglass, 1857
by mickeynATL on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:37:14 PM PDT
Is there actually precedent for considering benefits as part of compensation? I mean, I make a salary, and I have benefits, and they're not the same. When my insurance premiums go up, I don't really consider that my salary went down (although maybe I should, I don't know).
Anyway, if all "benefits" fall into the same bucket as compensation, can't one be substituted for another? I mean, say the insurance package was worth $XXX couldn't any equivalent "benefit" be substituted? Say $XXX worth of USPS stamps? Or healthclub memberships for family members? Hell, even US Savings Bonds or something?
by justinb on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:15:53 AM PDT
... the amendment has never been litigated on this point, but there's a decent body of caselaw that suggests it probably is compensation for these purposes.
Look: it's neat rhetoric, but it's never going to happen.
by Adam B on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:02:10 AM PDT
Well then I'd better get on the phone and have a chat with JRE.... lol
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:04:53 AM PDT
Tell me which 41 Republican Senators will let this pass.
by Adam B on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:08:48 AM PDT
If necessary, there are ways of persuading recalcitrant individuals and bringing them 'round...
Dems have forgotten the days of strong, manly men in the White House. Guys like Truman or LBJ or Eisenhower. Men who demanded respect.
Remember how Truman sacked MacArthur??
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:19:45 AM PDT
There are certain things the President can do under Article II, after all.
It's not a question of being "intimidated"; it's a question of math.
by Adam B on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:21:43 AM PDT
LBJ was a master of persuasion and knew how to forge deals. "Math" was an obstacle he knew how to overcome.
But if you are an effete person of weak character (Bill Clinton) and presence who is intimidated by others-- as opposed to doing the intimidating--you won't be able to fix the math problems.
That's all I meant.
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:41:10 AM PDT
Remember the arm-twisting to get his big 1993 budget deal passed? Look up Marjorie Margolies-Mezvinsky when you have a chance.
He twisted the arms, got the deal passed, and in the process lost the House for more than a decade.
by Adam B on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:08:32 PM PDT
for the reminder. lol
No, I didn't remember at all.
Just the aftermath you hint at: I just remember Congress about to tan his hide with that impeachment, and him sweating bullets... sword hanging over his head. LMAO!
Sheeesh, what a putz! :-)
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:24:10 PM PDT
by the Obama people - who should know better - is a total canard. The argument is that it violates the 27th Amdt. (which states that the "compensation" of Congress may not be varied until a new Congress is sat).
The problem with the argument is that the 27th Amdt is not interperted strictly - for instance Congressional pay has a Cost of Living Adjustment - which varies their compensation without a new Congress being sat. Morevoer - there are much more powerful arguments against the bizarre interpertation being urged by Obama's supporters. I have made these arguments before and they have not been refuted - the Obama people know they are blowing smoke.
Given that he claims expertise from being a law professor this argument reveals that he is more interested in winning elections than any fidelity to law.
by Boxer7 on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:21:31 AM PDT
Because as you know, the COLA stuff has persisted for a decade after the amendment's passage, and that's because (a) the COLA law was passed prior to the amendment and (b) no one with standing has chosen to sue.
In this case, the parties with standing (i.e, the Republican members of Congress) clearly would sue.
What arguments haven't been refuted?
by Adam B on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:07:04 AM PDT
.
by Adam B on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:19:25 PM PDT
*"The hell with the Constitution, the hell with the law, I'll implement populism by executive order."*
That's not the attitude of the John Edwards whom I respect, and who would be my second choice in this field. The world has been down that path more than a few times, and it generally hasn't ended well. I thought most members of this community thought the Bush administration had gone too far with signing statements and executive orders, and that this view was based on principle, rather than simply on whose ox was being gored, but I guess I was naive.
"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin
by leevank on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 06:51:34 AM PDT
Is this the new Edwards campaign theme? (0 / 0) *"The hell with the Constitution, the hell with the law, I'll implement populism by executive order."* That's not the attitude of the John Edwards whom I respect, and who would be my second choice in this field....
Is this the new Edwards campaign theme? (0 / 0) *"The hell with the Constitution, the hell with the law, I'll implement populism by executive order."*
That's not the attitude of the John Edwards whom I respect, and who would be my second choice in this field....
This is not Edwards' campaign theme at all. I am just pointing out what he could do if he chose to, that's all.
We have a highly flawed system of constitutionalism in this country, Leevank. Whenever the chief executive chooses to disregard the Constitution, it seems to be okay provided that national security is at stake. All top three Democrat presidential candidates implicitly accept this.
And when elections are at stake, it's also acceptable to disregard the law provided you can bluff your opponents into backing down. (2000 elections)
But when it's time to take extra-constitutional measures in favor of the welfare of the American people, all of a sudden the level of Concern For the Constitution skyrockets. Media pundits and blogosphere commentators sternly comment on how "impossible" this is and how such an "illegal" procedure cannot be allowed.
Be honest - don't you find such artifice just a little unseemly? Doesn't the rank intellectual dishonesty trouble you?
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:07:45 AM PDT
injustice? And what kind of looking glass have I walked through when that argument comes from the left?
It's insane. Literally.
by grannyhelen on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:18:48 AM PDT
doesn't suit us! Is THAT what you consider to be progressive? I also feel like I've walked through the looking glass.
To paraphrase Sir Thomas More in "A Man For All Seasons," I would give the devil himself the benefit of the law, because once we tear down the law, it won't protect US.
But if you folks want to campaign on the theme that John Edwards will govern as a dictator, ignoring the Constitution and the law to the extent that it's necessary to achieve what he views as justice, by all means, as many of you seem to be suggesting he would or at least should, be my guest.
by leevank on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:24:41 AM PDT
So let's just scrap the Constitution when it ... doesn't suit us! Is THAT what you consider to be progressive?
Well, isn't that what Barack, Hillary and John all seem to be saying?? None of them appears to be interested in impeachment in any way.
And Kucinich, bless his heart, the most fervent constitutionalist of all is routinely mocked and derided on this progressive blog.
I have no easy answers, but I'm saying "Let's examine our own contradictions honestly."
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:36:45 AM PDT
by grannyhelen on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:56:18 PM PDT
then it should be scrapped. We did that plenty of times before, both in our Constitution and in striking down codified injustice by reversing segregation laws.
Slavery was codified into law. Slaves being counted as 3/5ths of a person was a part of our constitution. We struck down those unjust laws.
Here's a quote from Jefferson to ruminate on (you know, that Declaration of Independence guy):
"I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical" (in a letter to James Madison, typed from a small framed artwork I purchased from the gift shop at Monticello).
by grannyhelen on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:34:31 PM PDT
ignore the Constitution, for any reason. It amazes me that people who claim to be progressives would seem to favor an absolute dictatorship, just so long as they get to choose the dictator. I don't trust ANYONE that much, nor should anybody else.
by leevank on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:20:24 AM PDT
What troubles me is when anyone seeks to ignore the Constitution, for any reason. It amazes me that people who claim to be progressives would seem to favor an absolute dictatorship....
Well the discussion we're having is theoretical, but so is your analysis of constitutionalism in our political life.
It's a document whose spirit and letter has been continually ignored in one way or another for its entire existence, usually for the benefit of the wealthy, powerful and privileged. You are clearly intelligent enough to understand this.
How long did it take for the curse of slavery to be eradicated from our republic?? How long did it take for Japanese-Americans to be compensated for their illegal imprisonment during WWII? How long did it take for women to get the vote?
And does it really tear your heart out that Abraham Lincoln exceeded his constitutional authority in waging the Civil War and abolishing slavery?
Finally, what kind of progressivism DO you envision? The kind that politely follows every petty rule and regulation designed to keep poor and powerless people poor and powerless? Or the kind that may offend constitutional scholars, but clearly works on behalf of social justice?
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:32:21 AM PDT
The Constitution is just a piece of paper...
The authoritarians...
HR 676 is the best health reform proposal worth my vote.
by kck on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:35:56 AM PDT
George W. Bush.
Surely, you realize that Commanders-in-Chief throughout history have walked over the Constitution whenever they found it expedient and were confident of not being reprimanded.
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:40:03 AM PDT
...in time but, imo so, no end
by kck on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:44:36 AM PDT
How very principled of you.
Help provide resources to Obama supporters! Contribute to the Obama Wiki!
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:57:39 AM PDT
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:16:07 AM PDT
...have such a good track record of doing noble and humane things with government?
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:17:45 AM PDT
Edwards has stated that he will ask fopr a bill in Congress and use the bully pulpit.
But on a more important point: hope without the courage to fight for what is right is just an advertsing slogan. Hope monger for what?
"There is one man who knows in his heart that we have to build one America - not two - and that man is Barack Obama." John Edwards 5/14/08
by TomP on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:02:23 AM PDT
hope without the courage to fight is nothing.
here that Obama fans??
Even Hillary ridicules Obama's "hope" message!
Vote for Pappy O'Daniel!
by pappy odaniel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:14:12 AM PDT
You knew that, of course. Just more misinformation spread by desparete Obama supporters.
"We all want universal health care – but just having a plan is not enough," Edwards said. "We've seen plans fail before in Congress, and they will again unless we have a new approach. We have to be willing to take on the drug companies, insurance companies, and their Washington lobbyists who killed reform last time. But if you're defending the system, taking money from their lobbyists and giving them a seat at the table, reform is just not going to happen." On the first day of Edwards' administration, he will submit legislation that ends health care coverage for the president, all members of Congress, and all senior political appointees in the legislative and executive branches of government on July 20th, 2009 -- unless Congress has enacted universal health care reform. Edwards will require Congress to pass universal health insurance that meets four principles: (1) It must be truly universal; (2) Anyone who has health care must be able to keep it and pay less for it; (3) Anyone who doesn't have health care must get it, with help if they can't afford it; (4) Doctors and patients, not insurance companies and HMOs, must have control of health care decisions.
"We all want universal health care – but just having a plan is not enough," Edwards said. "We've seen plans fail before in Congress, and they will again unless we have a new approach. We have to be willing to take on the drug companies, insurance companies, and their Washington lobbyists who killed reform last time. But if you're defending the system, taking money from their lobbyists and giving them a seat at the table, reform is just not going to happen."
On the first day of Edwards' administration, he will submit legislation that ends health care coverage for the president, all members of Congress, and all senior political appointees in the legislative and executive branches of government on July 20th, 2009 -- unless Congress has enacted universal health care reform.
Edwards will require Congress to pass universal health insurance that meets four principles: (1) It must be truly universal; (2) Anyone who has health care must be able to keep it and pay less for it; (3) Anyone who doesn't have health care must get it, with help if they can't afford it; (4) Doctors and patients, not insurance companies and HMOs, must have control of health care decisions.
Edwards: Congress Shouldn't Have Health Care If Americans Don't
by TomP on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:08:54 AM PDT
Last I saw, it was Edwards's supporters (and others) defending the notion of Edwards pulling Congress's health care and establishing universal coverage by fiat.
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:21:14 AM PDT
I've said several times in this thread that I'm thankful that there's nothing in John Edwards' history to suggest that he has the appetite for rule by decree that some of his supporters seem to. But it was an Edwards supporter who said he'd do it by executive order, regardless of the law and the Constitution. THAT'S what I was objecting to.
I've got no problem whatsoever with proposing legislation and using the "bully pulpit."
by leevank on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:51:22 AM PDT
But it was an Edwards supporter who said he'd do it by executive order, regardless of the law and the Constitution. THAT'S what I was objecting to.
If you're referring to me, please understand that I'm a secondary Edwards supporter only.
My primary allegiance is to Obama - but either of the two candidates would be acceptable as President to me. I was just making the case for an alternative vision of how Edwards could make things happen.
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:54:43 AM PDT
You and grannyhelen would have my vote based on your arguments.
by cwaltz on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 12:55:09 AM PDT
Thanks, cwaltz!
by Miles in WesternWA on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 12:58:23 AM PDT
executive orders that Edwards could sign.
It boggles the mind, what such power in truly honorable hands could do!
by pappy odaniel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:07:19 AM PDT
An executive order can NOT be used to take away Congressional benefits and this has already been discussed from a consitutional law point of view in the media and they said it would not be possible.
by EricRSINY on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 06:04:02 AM PDT
Tell me this, Eric.
If President Edwards passes the EO and strips the Congressional benefits away, who is going to come to the defense of the members of Congress??
Who is going to invalidate his actions?
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 06:24:44 AM PDT
by leevank on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 06:53:46 AM PDT
Who is going to enforce the court's order?
I'm serious. Are they going to send a bailiff to the White House to confront President Edwards?
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:09:54 AM PDT
That a President Edwards would order the Executive Branch to ignore the laws and the Constitution, and to obey his clearly unconstitutional orders even if a court orders them to do otherwise?
I'm frankly astounded that so many Edwards supporters in this community seem to want to elect John Edwards as Dictator, rather than President. And I suspect that John Edwards would be equally astounded by the attitude of many of his supporters here.
by leevank on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:28:47 AM PDT
...are a/the corporate structure that breeds Enronization...this is the age of Bush just starting to blossom, people who have grown up under the juiciness of power when all it takes to get YOUR goals accomplished is to "think out of the box"...the New Authoritarians...unfettered by old pieces of paper...government by moralistic crowds...
by kck on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:42:36 AM PDT
Or perhaps Moscow or St. Petersburg circa 1917. Those experiments in achieving justice by ignoring inconvenient laws didn't turn out too well, as is the case with virtually all such experiments.
Fortunately, there is nothing in John Edwards' history that suggests he favors ignoring inconvenient laws the way many of his supporters apparently feel is the way to achieve "justice."
by leevank on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:57:03 AM PDT
...than many of his supporters here, who think St. John's Holy Crusade is more important than the Constitution itself. If St. John were really the demagogue his supporters here want him to be, I'd be fighting him tooth and nail instead of simply opposing him.
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:05:18 AM PDT
"St. John" is so fucking demeaning. You demean yourself with your disgusting and ignorant comment.
I find the increasing desperation of Obama supporters quite amusing.
Your comments reveal to the world the lack of progressive values that you have. It's just a word without content to you.
by TomP on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:18:56 AM PDT
let them defend the system and we will defend the people.
UP News - News from the people, not corporations UP News
by wade norris on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:20:38 AM PDT
They really are not progressives or liberals. They worship a man. That's all.
Yeah, I was getting pissed off at the privileged people who argue abstractions while people like Natalie die.
You're right. We'll fight for the people.
by TomP on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:23:13 AM PDT
And you think St. John is demeaning?
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:26:09 AM PDT
"St. John" is demeaning and childish.
And, yes, I think you worship a man.
I think you have no political conciousness at all. I don't hear about issues from you. I find your comments trite for the most part.
by TomP on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:32:46 AM PDT
...and then go on to issue a string of rather ridiculous personal insults against me?
I'm sure your candidate is proud of your support.
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:38:53 AM PDT
it is thus quite fascist in that regard.
We do not think that Edwards himself is a holy man; we DO think that Edward's MISSION and MESSAGE is holy & noble!
Obama has NO mission and NO message (hope??); the Obama campaign is thus all about Obama the personality, as if Obama were some sort of holy Christ figure.
Thus, the entire Obama campaign could be considered a bogus shallow cult of personality.
by pappy odaniel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:56:23 AM PDT
supporters differ from Edwards supporters only by degree.
I do NOT worship Obama's personality. We are not a cult. I think that in areas outside of health care, he has some sharp, insightful ideas. Just a different approach than JRE's - that's all.
He is a good man; I trust the voters in Illinois as it is not a backwards state by any means.
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:14:50 AM PDT
the Obamites here were directing at Edwards.
Just last week I was in your Obama camp. I wanted to take down Hillary so bad, I was willing to join the Obama camp, just to help ANYONE take down Hillary!
But, I want MORE than that, MUCH more; I want to take down EVERY corporatist as well, so I have rejoined the Edwards camp.
I feel that there is some bad Lieberman blood in Obama; I just feel it. Obama has said too many queer things.
by pappy odaniel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:31:30 AM PDT
I mostly lurk these days, rec the odd comment, and don't do myself any favors by wading into these candidate diaries, BUT I am a little shocked to find myself described as a fascist adherent of a cult of personality. You don't draw any distinctions between Obama supporters at all? Nor the campaign? Do you really believe this? I'd be personally disappointed if Clinton is our standard bearer, and I'd be fairly pleased if it was Edwards; I don't consider myself a cultist.
At the risk of offense, I do note that you've taken your user name from a late and imfamous governor of Texas, one notable for both a failed, personality-driven form of populism, and, ultimately, for being a crudely racist opponent of the Civil Rights Movement. I'm hoping it is ironic. Of course he did play a role in the popularity of Bob Wills, so I guess no person is all bad.
No one likes armed missionaries. -- Robespierre.
by Gator Keyfitz on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:41:11 AM PDT
the movie "O Brother, where art thou?"
I like how my DKos name sounds, and the movie pappy o'daniel character was sort of cool and pragmatic (FYI, the movie pappy was anti-KKK.)
OK, I respectfully ask you, what is the central theme/message of Obama (please don't tell me "hope" and "change".)
HOW change??
HOW??
Edwards wants to change the system, how, by leashing the corporatists.
If you can prove to me that Obama actually stands for something concrete like Edwards does, I will correct myself.
by pappy odaniel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:13:27 AM PDT
You accuse Obama supporters of being fascists and worshipping their candidate, when it's Edwards supporters on here who are suggesting that their candidate should have the power to rule by decree, without regard to the Constitution or laws, in order to implement their view of justice. I've said that I wouldn't trust ANYBODY with that kind of power -- not John Edwards, not Barack Obama, and not even myself. It's a strange world where that makes me a fascist.
by leevank on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:23:54 PM PDT
Same on you.
by kck on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:00:04 AM PDT
by mickeynATL on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:43:24 PM PDT
...and you're talking about political in a much bigger way than I was, in which case, I certainly agree.
by kck on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:10:38 PM PDT
having respect for the rule of law become equivalent to defending the system?
(And because of your small political frame in this comment, I should say that I am not campaigning against or for any candidate in the primary.)
by kck on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:04:18 AM PDT
But first and foremost, "progressive" in this country means respecting the Constitution as the law of the land, even when it doesn't allow you to do what you want to do. Many of Edwards's supporters here seem to have lost sight of that in favor of a vision of demagoguery with which, thankfully, their candidate does not agree.
Moreover, I believe you yourself have accused those who don't support Edwards of (let me see if I remember this right) being Nazgul attempting to stop John Edwards's light. If Obama supporters are regularly accused of being cultists, shouldn't Edwards's most rabid supporters (who are even to the point of being willing to ditch the Constitution for him) be seen in the same light?
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:25:11 AM PDT
You are right, the Obama club IS getting nervous.
They know in their heart of hearts that the Edwards message is the true Democratic message, the classic Democratic message,
unlike the fuzzy post-modernist New Age of Oprah crap that Hillary and Obama peddle.
by pappy odaniel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:44:08 AM PDT
Do you think that "hope" and "negotiation" would have been a more productive thing for the starving French peasants to do?
Come, let us negotiate about this.
Oprah and Dr. Phil will hold both of our hands as we talk.
by pappy odaniel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:21:14 AM PDT
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:26:35 AM PDT
What the HELL are you suggesting? That a President Edwards would order the Executive Branch to ignore the laws and the Constitution, and to obey his clearly unconstitutional orders even if a court orders them to do otherwise?
I'm suggesting that a President Edwards would do well to take whatever executive action he found necessary to implement Universal Health Care, so far as such action is in keeping with the following:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Note carefully what it says about "promote the general welfare," - NOT "promote powerful corporate interests at the expense of the general welfare of working people."
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:59:06 AM PDT
So does that mean all Bush's executive orders have been kosher?
No President and no issue is more important than the Constitution. If John Edwards did this, I'd join Congress in fighting it tooth and nail. (If John Edwards did this, how much of the rest of his legislative agenda does he think he could get through a Congress that he's now set up as "the enemy"?)
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:02:13 AM PDT
If John Edwards did this, I'd join Congress in fighting it tooth and nail.
This is likely brave talk from a disinterested and neutral observer.
If fact, if your beloved spouse or precious little boy was afflicted with a rare form of leukemia and you had no insurance whatsoever, you'd be in the front lines FIGHTING WITH President Edwards. Marching on Congress to support his efforts.
You see, it's all about the haves and the have-nots. You may not realize it yet - but wait until YOU are one of the have-nots in the worst way possible.
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:11:05 AM PDT
The Constitution is more important than national health care. The Constitution is more important than any part of John Edwards's agenda.
If he wants to try to influence Congress to pull their own healthcare, fine; I don't think it's workable, and it puts him on the wrong side of Congress when he wants friends to pass any other parts of his legislative agenda, but it's perfectly Constitutional. But if he wants to pull Congress's health care and establish universal health care by executive fiat, that is unconstitutional in every way.
Fortunately, John Edwards knows this, which is why I still consider him an acceptable choice for President. If he went down the path you're going down, I'd actively oppose him instead of simply supporting another candidate.
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:16:32 AM PDT
But if he wants to pull Congress's health care and establish universal health care by executive fiat, that is unconstitutional in every way. Fortunately, John Edwards knows this, which is why I still consider him an acceptable choice for President. If he went down the path you're going down, I'd actively oppose him instead of simply supporting another candidate.
But if he wants to pull Congress's health care and establish universal health care by executive fiat, that is unconstitutional in every way.
I won't argue with any of the above, but I think it's instructive as to why Democrats are notorious losers in American politics.
People as widely diverse as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Karl Rove have a passionate commitment to their ideals and are not afraid to break laws and piss people off in the process of pushing for their agenda.
Modern day "progressives" are a whole different breed. We are skittish kittens frightened of our own shadow - not to mention taking unilateral action for social justice even if the strict letter of the law is broken.
This is why committed, passionate ideologues of either the right or left get shit done. And it's why modern Democrats get little or nothing done.
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:27:05 AM PDT
How dare we demand that presidents with a D after their name take their oath to preserve and defend the Constitution seriously, even while our opponents don't? What a path for losers.
We despise Karl Rove around here - not only because he's working for the other side, but because he's put political victory above every other consideration, moral and otherwise. If we Democrats ever openly and proudly lower ourselves to that level, as you're suggesting we should, that will be the day I will no longer be a Democrat.
The Constitution is more important than any president, any Congress, or any issue.
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:30:00 AM PDT
Dude, you are so theoretical that you are practically floating in the upper stratosphere.
I'll just say this: I'm SO, SO, SO GLAD that Dr. King did not have your passionate idealism about the holy sanctity of the "letter of the law." I'm glad he was brave enough to go to jail for what he believed in.
That's it. I won't say any more to try to sway you to my brand of activist progressivism.
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:45:57 AM PDT
That's what you don't seem to get. Dr. King going to jail respected the authority of the law by doing so, even as he opposed the law itself. If he didn't respect the law, he would have run away from prison. The whole point of civil disobedience is that you accept the legal punishment, thereby making clear that you support the authority of the law in general, while pointing out its absurdity, thereby making clear that the laws themselves need to be changed.
I fear your brand of "activist progressivism," if brought to power. I think it would lead to the guillotine, as the "activist progressivism" of 1789 did.
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:52:43 AM PDT
And I think Edwards is ready to accept whatever "legal punishment' he has to endure in order to point out the absurdity of the congress members wanting health care for themselves and their family but not for the American people.
by hng on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:40:25 PM PDT
by executive fiat? The answer is that the preamble of the Constitution doesn't give anybody any authority to do anything, and that he recognizes that the President has only the powers delegated to him in Article II. Don't they teach Civics in the schools any more?
by leevank on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:03:02 AM PDT
universal health care? How many must die?
You are arguing abstract bullshit while people die.
You know none of it is real, but you want to change the subject.
Obama failed the moral test of universal health care.
by TomP on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:20:35 AM PDT
The only candidate who has proposed a system that would TRULY give universal health care is Dennis Kucinich, because no system of mandates is ever 100% enforceable.
And Obama's plan gives EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN the ability to get quality, affordable health insurance with government subsidies for those who can't afford it. The only people who wouldn't be covered are adults who voluntarily decide not to buy it. How the question of whether people should be forced to purchase health insurance that they don't want becomes a "moral test" that one can "fail" by not forcing people to do what they don't want to do is frankly beyond me.
by leevank on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:37:56 AM PDT
Don't they teach Civics in the schools any more?
We have three successful, highly intelligent lawyers leading the Democratic field, Leevank. Two of them from posh, Ivy League law schools. Since they see no need whatsover to bother with impeachment proceedings against a criminal Commander in Chief, why don't you just ask them that same question.
Any of them. I don't have a particular bias when it comes to this issue.
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:36:09 AM PDT
The Constitution is more important.
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:55:23 AM PDT
If President Edwards passes the EO and strips the Congressional benefits away, who is going to come to the defense of the members of Congress?? Who is going to invalidate his actions?
I will. The Constitution is more important.
But not when the Constitution is mocked in order to launch a fradulent war that costs 3900+ American lives, right?
That sort of action is best left alone. Not worth your bother, right?
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:20:00 AM PDT
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:27:18 AM PDT
a hill of beans, as far as Bush is concerned.
So why the angry bluster at a hypothetical Imperial Presidency by Edwards?
by Miles in WesternWA on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:38:45 AM PDT
Because we are better than them. Because we respect the Constitution and they don't. Because we put doing the right thing above winning elections and they don't.
In short, because we still believe in what America once stood for. They don't.
by mistersite on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 08:42:25 AM PDT
Just sayin'...
by pictboy3 on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 03:00:42 AM PDT
If I remember correctly, didnt Russ Feingold refuse his healthcare? He would seem like a natural ally in this battle. Or any battle for that matter.
BHO - The Great Uniter
by JackTheIntelligentDesigner on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 03:45:25 AM PDT
Bernie Sanders. He'd probably introduce the bill in the Senate in the blink of an eye.
by unclejohn on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 03:45:56 AM PDT
Never is a long time. There are plenty of good Congresspeople and Senators along with the other kind. You're really grasping at straws by saying that there is no person in Congress who would bring this to the floor.
"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson
by joanneleon on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:45:29 AM PDT