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out on a limb to say that the days ahead will reveal conclusively that CIGNA bears full responsibility for this unspeakable tragedy.
I think it's very important to get a sense of the battles doctors fight every day with this murderous industry.
Tell your healthcare and insurance horror stories at Guaranteed Healthcare
by nyceve on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:51:33 AM PDT
of all ages, and yet we pay into it everyday, hoping against hope that if anything were to happen to us or anyone in our families, that they wouldn't do this, that we're covered. But it's all an illusion.
Spears/Hilton '08
by cosbo on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:06:57 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
There is only one incentive: a financial incentive, and this requires murderous actions like the one directed against Nataline.
by nyceve on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:09:07 AM PDT
who had prostrate cancer, which I've since been told, is one of the more easily treated cancers.
When my father flew down to question my uncle's doctor as to why no treatment was forthcoming, Dad discovered to his horror that the doctor assigned to be my uncle's "oncologist" had actually trained as a gynecologist.
My father has, so far, lived 20 years longer than his brother because an HMO pulled the same trick as health insurance companies now do: hire an incompetent from another speciality to "decide" which treatment the insurance company won't cover.
by judybrowni on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:21:40 AM PDT
best friends with since the first day of kindergarten till he died at 41 yrs of age from the delay of treatment and the niggardly treatment of his testicular cancer. It was "experimental" tx back then. This is exactly why I'm for Edwards, I want single payer, but at least he knows he's in for a fight.
"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:10:07 PM PDT
participate, the very people who are the problem. I'm sorry I can't support his healthcare plan.
ROAD2DC ... IGTNT
by snackdoodle on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:49:17 PM PDT
so the Edwards plan is better than any of he others and he will fight for it. I don't think he is asking the insurance co. to participate in the drafting of the plan, unlike some of the others who will probably let them write the details.
by NearlyNormal on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:24:09 PM PDT
Edwards doesn't outright ban for-profit health care. His plan is to offer a national insurance plan backed by the government thats less expensive to individuals and offers better care than the Insurance companies -- and no limit on who can join.
What this leads to is the for-profits going bankrupt as the vast majority vote with their wallets for the less expensive, better care.
We have no desire to offend you -- unless you are a twit!
by ScrewySquirrel on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:44:53 PM PDT
by BBelle on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 02:29:28 PM PDT
Is that an exaggeration ???
One one helluva lot of people -- everybody with a "pre-existing condition" to start with -- it seems spot-on.
What am I missing ?
Dixie Chicks, Amy Winehouse, Imus, and Rev. Wright. Overcome our evil with good.
by vets74 on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:16:28 PM PDT
out. THe other thing not jsut about his plan but others too and that is they leave people behind, the most vulnerable in most cases. Very few candidates have really thought about how to reach the homeless and the derelicts. Oh, I know they can sign up, the problem is they won't.
by snackdoodle on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:17:51 PM PDT
It is far too easy for the insurance industry to defeat the Edwards plan. Either - most likely - at the negotiating table between lobbyists and Congress.
Or, if his plan makes it unscathed through that, Edward's plan is the perfect setup for the neocons to kill universal health car for another 30 years. Insurance companies won't sit back and take this government competition. They'll lower premiums, and then a couple years later argue that "government health care is too expensive" Once the government program is killed (or restricted so as to be unattractive for everybody), they'll raise their premiums back to today's levels - but this time with the "experience" that universal health care is worse.
Army 1st Lt. Ehren T. Watada, Lt. Cdr USN Matthew Diaz, SPC Eli Israel: true American heroes.
by sdgeek on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 01:10:57 AM PDT
Will the Edwards plan be subsidized by the government?
If so, then it's obviously going to be able to do more for less because even people with private plans will be paying for it as well out of their taxes but that doesn't mean it will be better... and obviously if that's how it is done it will be less fair than the current system.
On the other hand, if it isn't subsidized isn't it going to have exactly the same issues that private plans do - that it will need to budget and save money where it can?
by chike on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 06:26:22 AM PDT
for the candidate who most closely matches your issues, screw chances, everyone has a chance at this point. We need to get off this crap and start voting the issues and our conscience. This is why we are likely going to fuck this chance up too.
by snackdoodle on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:14:34 PM PDT
Edwards is giving them one seat at the table.
One seat. Not all the seats. One seat, where presumably they will be throttled, strangled and decapitated. One seat wherein they will be told--this is what you will do. This is what you won't do.
I think Edwards is proposing a plan whereby if the American people elect to be covered by the government entity he is committed to, the insurers will die a painful death.
They will have to compete and take everyone regardless of their health.
Presumably they will be heavily regulated and will be required to spend at miniumn 85% of the premium revenue on patient care.
Something along these lines.
by nyceve on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 02:43:44 PM PDT
haven't the insurance companies been given every chance to make good use of their position? Aside from corporate campaign finance funding--which I understand Edwards has disavowed--why include them? I don't get it.
Mama, could we buy stuff made in China if we moved there? -- My six year-old son.
by leolabeth on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 03:20:43 PM PDT
but there are things I just can't get past.
by snackdoodle on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:19:59 PM PDT
Not much of it.
But that is not a problem. English insurance gives plusher accommodations at hospitals, certain improvements over standard fare.
Nothing wrong with that, if you have money to spend on it.
I'll never complain about about a guy making more money than I do.
by vets74 on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:20:16 PM PDT
Unfortunately, no candidate has provided extremely detailed plans, so we cannot know all the ins and outs of their plan or ultimate goals. What we have to work with shows that Edwards plan is the closest to getting us to a national health insurance system.
Please also remember, private health insurance still exists in many countries with a full national health care system. The government didn't ban those types of companies from existing. There is almost always a market for them. I live in Japan now. I am on the National Health Insurance program, but many people working for large companies are also on private insurance just to "be extra safe," and the company often pays for it.
In the US, after paying my $1000 deductible, I used to pay about $500 a month with my health insurance bill, doctor visits, and medical supplies and prescriptions (I have a "pre-existing condition").
In Japan, I pay about $150/month (monthly insurance fee+doctor's visit+prescriptions+supplies), no deductible. I can't imagine moving back to the US again and giving such a huge portion of my earnings to these evil companies just to stay alive. For this reason, I hope Edwards wins and fights.
by poxonyou on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:06:00 PM PDT
by vets74 on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 07:02:46 AM PDT
The Institute of Medicine study showed that 18,000 Americans die needless deaths every years because of the lack of access to health care.
Nataline Sarkisyan has put a face on it and we should use it...
What I would suggest while the issue is still hot... everyone should down load a photograph of her and print it out on a letter sheet.
On the back of that sheet you should type a simple message:
The Institute of Medicine study showed that every year 18,000 Natalines are "murdered by spread sheet" here in America by insurance companies. Their bureaucracy is designed to do nothing but deny patients care or delay it till they pass away. As a constituent and I am demanding that you initiate hearings into her death and the thousands of others like her who die every year at the hands of the insurance companies. Murder is a crime and should not go unpunished! Murder for corporate profit is a crime against humanity. Sincerely, Your name
The Institute of Medicine study showed that every year 18,000 Natalines are "murdered by spread sheet" here in America by insurance companies. Their bureaucracy is designed to do nothing but deny patients care or delay it till they pass away.
As a constituent and I am demanding that you initiate hearings into her death and the thousands of others like her who die every year at the hands of the insurance companies.
Murder is a crime and should not go unpunished! Murder for corporate profit is a crime against humanity.
Sincerely,
Your name
I would put that, a brief recount of the events surrounding Nataline Sarkisyan's death and attach a copy of the letter from the physician in this diary in an envelope and send it to your reps in congress and as many others as you care too.
Nataline Sarkisyan death should not be forgotten! Doing this is one way that you can help give her life and her death meaning. While it is too late for her... it may prevent other Natalines from meeting the same fate!
by Flint on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:51:25 PM PDT
won't be forgotten--for a long time.
There are some brilliant activists who will keep this front and center for as long as it takes.
But we also need the netroots to jump into action on a moment's notice.
PLEASE REMEMBER, KOSSACKS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAS HAPPENED OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS.
THAT MEANS YOU. YES, YOU!
by nyceve on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:05:18 PM PDT
and more interesting situation than most likely going for a swim and drowning.
BTW: there's a new Nataline every day.
Every single day.
by vets74 on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:23:14 PM PDT
The Institute of Medicines study says that 18,000 Americans die needless deaths, from treatable disorders, every year from the lack of access to health care...
Do the math... that means that there are 51 Natalines everyday here in America! We went to war in two nations over the 3,000 deaths. Shouldn't we be just as angry and dedicated to beating the killer of 18,000 Americans? Are there lives any less important?
by Flint on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:09:30 PM PDT
Is there any limit to the amount of money you think we should pay for health care?
by chike on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 06:30:41 AM PDT
to the money we have available to spend on our asinine war in Iraq, if the child's doctor recommends a certain course of treatment, they should get that treatment. End of story.
by tommymet on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 10:07:44 AM PDT
because we spent more money than you think appropriate on Iraq?
Your cogent logic defeats me.
by chike on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 04:26:42 PM PDT
This is exactly what some of us are saying.
A Natalie Holloway for healthcare.
Hopefully this will rouse the American people.
by nyceve on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 07:29:55 PM PDT
Pretty young dead girls, that is.
Focus on the 13- to 17-year old spectrum.
Nice pictures. The more Nordic, the better. Thin. Pretty. Ten finger, ten toes. Two eyes. Go with every stereotype norm for the ad campaign ideas of perfection.
Dead Barbie of the Week.
Seriously.......
Point's gotta be that anybody can get killed with this crapola.
Go, go, go -- Eve.
by vets74 on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 07:00:55 AM PDT
if you have a link to an image / photo of Nataline (not just a screen capture from one of the news nets), please advise and provide a link...
Thanks!!
by Richard Cranium on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 03:24:38 PM PDT
I could only find screen grabs as well but with my graphics work station I was able to pull a 6'x10' tight shot of her that has sufficient resolution to print well.
I do photo-retouching and animation for motion pictures and can blow this up and retouch if needed.
The only problem I have is that I'm taking my mother on an early morning flight to see her brother who is not going to last much longer tomorrow morning. I can't really get to this until January 3rd.
This might be okay as that everything is going to shutdown for the holidays shortly. We could do a blog campaign in January on this but I have a problem and could use some advice from more experienced posters here:
How can I set up an account with a graphics server company that will allow a high rez photo to be put in a post on D-Kos, that visitors could down load to their machines to print out?
A JPEG image uncompressed should be okay and be limited in size, but have enough resolution to print well.
I'd even write some text to accompany it, although people would be encouraged to write their own representatives.
Sending this to the Presidential campaign offices would also be a good idea as well.
I don't want to get too political, but it might not be a bad idea to remind Mr. Obama that these are the people he thinks he can negotiate with... they are some of the hardest hearts that ever beat in a human breast... if they have one at all. The insurance companies have put a price tag on human life and they do this stuff every day.
This one worked very well:
http://abclocal.go.com/...
http://abcnews.go.com/...
http://www.dbtechno.com/...
http://www.physorg.com/...
by Flint on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:02:16 PM PDT
These insurance companies really are criminal. Bate and switch tactics?
It's fraud, theft and murder, plain and simple.
If you dance with the devil, then you haven't got a clue; 'Cause you think you'll change the devil, but the devil changes you. - illyia
by illyia on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:39:39 PM PDT
it's the funding.
SOCIALIZE THE FUNDING--PRIVATIZE THE CARE
How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.
by hannah on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:25:53 AM PDT
The Canadian "single payer" health system is socialized insurance... not socialized medicine.
Socialized medicine is like the VA hospital and believe me no one wants that!
In Canada, physicians work for themselves and patients are free to chose which doctor they go to.
Doctors in the Canadian system also regulate themselves. Physicians for regional boards where peer physicians determine what is fair pricing for procedures... they police themselves and the system works very well.
by Flint on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:56:20 PM PDT
Good way to put it, Flint.
If our Anti-Trust laws applied to the insurance industry, I believe the healthcare problem would have been resolved long ago.
"We are a Plutocracy, we ought to face it. We need, desperately, to find new ways to hear independent voices & points of view" Ramsey Clark, US AG
by Mr SeeMore on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:10:58 PM PDT
funded, too. Veterans Healthcare, as well? Its a matter of funding, not one of Providers and Professionals.
Even in its present condition, most Veterans are glad they have it. And, even under the constraints of the VA system, you would be impressed with the results and compassion for patients, found at most VA facilities.
by leonard145b on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:38:33 PM PDT
The VA would be great if it was funded adequately. I'm not at all enamoured of the military "health care" system, but the VA is separate and it does the best it can with the resources it has.
In Canada, most of the best hospitals are university and research hospitals, which are publicly owned and operated. In France, many (or most) hospitals are public. Countries with socialized insurance and/or socialized medicine have plenty of doctors in private practice, but larger facilities are often handled by the government or other public institutions simply because it's effective and efficient. As long as the funding is adequate, there is no problem.
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
by kyril on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 02:48:03 PM PDT
The Veterans Affairs hospital system is first rate.
Good doctors, great care.
Wonderful employees.
Not perfect.
by vets74 on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:25:25 PM PDT
...in innovations and research.
Rubus Eradicandus Est.
by Randomfactor on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:00:45 PM PDT
All within 18 months: 5 months of chemo, removal of left lung, two brain procedures (neurosurgical operations), to treat an aneurysm with an aneurysm (called a daughter), and an Arteriovenous malformation, equally as dangerous as the aneurysm situation. Treated me like gold the whole time, caring staff, and skilled doctors. All for zip, nada, nothing. I can't say anything bad about any of their care.
IT IS NEVER TOO LATE.....GO DENNIS GO!!!!!
BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INCARCERATE
by crystaljim on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 06:45:16 PM PDT
Kinda puts paid to the lie that for-profit systems are more efficient.
Letting the VA take over all the hospitals would be fine with me.
Not likely......
by vets74 on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 06:54:40 AM PDT
pay for our own health care if we need it. I know that sounds silly; but 0$ funds from the insurance you paid into for years compared to whatever you can come up with in investments with the money you payed that insurance company is a larger sum.
by 123Mary123 on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 02:19:18 PM PDT
if you have the means to do that, then more power to you! The only leverage we have over insurance companies is to stop giving them money.
However, most of this country is absolutely not able to do anything like that. Many of us can't even afford the cheapest insurance; a health savings account, which the Republicans want to enshrine in law and encourage with tax breaks, would do nothing for us and would actually worsen the situations of many families, particularly ones with very sick or elderly people.
So as a personal decision by a person of means, it's a great idea. But please be careful about advocating it, lest it become a matter of public policy.
by kyril on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 02:53:36 PM PDT
would solve the problem. I'm just tired of being dependent on an industry that kills people. Electing fighters who will lead us in an effort to dissolve their power is the only REAL solution.
by 123Mary123 on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 03:03:53 PM PDT
but I will have to calculate that proposal. I remember a friend whose dad was an MD and my friend always said that her family was "self-insured". I suspect that practicing MDs get better, and timelier care than the rest of us.
Americans, while occasionally willing to be serfs, have always been obstinate about being peasantry. F. Scott Fitzgerald, the Great Gatsby
by riverlover on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 06:20:36 PM PDT
Keep up our fight!!
"The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08
by TomP on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:08:04 AM PDT
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. -8.25, -6.21
by Jacques on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:06:18 PM PDT
that said, I'm cynical about it actually happening.
I struggle with insurance companies every week, and trying to keep up with the demands of fifty different health care plans (it's probably more) slows me down every day.
It's been broken for some time now. How many kids have to die to bring this fact home to the American people?
Universal Health Care - it's coming, but not soon enough!
by DrFood on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:11:19 AM PDT
Hard time, the state penal system, not some country club federal prison is where insurance industry felons belong.
Dennis Koslowski (Tyco felon) is in a New York State jail with some seriously bad people and guess what, he found Jesus.
by nyceve on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:34:10 AM PDT
HARD time in a real prison because that's where the citizens who must rely upon this failed system have to live, in lack of health care prison!
"People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"
by Wary on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:39:53 AM PDT
...is to take away ALL of their money and wealth.
Throw them into an inner-city jail for a few years, then force them to work at Wal-Mart for the rest of their lives. And cope accordingly.
That's the only way to get the message through.
"Le ciel est bleu, l'enfer est rouge."
by Buzzer on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:43:32 AM PDT
They would still have healthcare in prison.
So it might require more.
"Get informed, and let it change you."--wonderingmind42's chemistry professor
by DemocracyLover in NYC on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:25:13 PM PDT
is privatized. So they would have to deal with not only being in prison, but getting decent health care out of people just like them, health for profit companies. Sounds like poetic justice to me! Heh.
What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams
by Demfem on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:00:19 PM PDT
I like where you're going with this. Instead of jail time, force them to work at a community clinic at minimum wage. And by them, not just the doctors who went along, but everyone along the chain. They will have a life-time ban in working in any corporate environment (hey ,if computer hackers can have a similar ban from working with computers, why not suits with offices??). Also, community service must be mandated, equallying a 20 year sentence per incident, let their free time be with the victims of society.
Last, but not least, in addition to striping them of their wealth (including life insurance and any trusts they may have set up), that they be forced to buy into a competitor's health plan. No longer wealthy and with connections, lets see them go through what the rest of us have to.
What doesn't kill you simply makes you.. stranger - The Joker(Heath Ledger)
by Johnny Venom on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:26:09 PM PDT
What crime do you think was committed by who?
Or are we just going to throw people in jail because we don't like them?
by chike on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 06:34:40 AM PDT
.
by Buzzer on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 07:33:35 AM PDT
In particular, how does this meet the elements of the statutory definition of the crime?
For example, did the insurance company's negligence lead to her disease?
by chike on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 04:25:27 PM PDT
...blew off the doctors' recommendations for surgery.
If she'd had the surgery, she might have lived.
Cigna's indifference contributed to her death.
by Buzzer on Mon Dec 24, 2007 at 08:23:54 AM PDT
would probably get better and quicker health care in San Quentin, than Nataline received as an insured American.
PLEASE REMEMBER, NATALINE WAS INSURED!
by nyceve on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:45:25 AM PDT
quotes around that word, "insured".
The lone and level sands stretch far away. -Shelley
by justme on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:30:44 PM PDT
A neighbor's son -- a lifetime loser who never accomplished anything, and never wanted to -- recently spent four years in a NC prison. He came out with an appendectomy, and a new set of teeth!
Now, he's back in jail. If his liver goes bad (which is a pretty good bet with this guy), there won't be any debate over whether to fix it.
Fascism creeps in on little cat feet.
by Executive Odor on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:32:44 PM PDT
... that I saw somewhere here on DailyKos. It sums it up for me.
I wish I could remember who first said it, to give that person proper credit -- but I would like it to enter as a stock, soundbite phrase into the healthcare debate -- as you are attempting to do with your repetition of the phrase "Murder by Spreadsheet".
It is:
WE DON'T WANT INSURANCE. WE WANT HEALTHCARE.
by niemann on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 01:21:13 PM PDT
"You know they've reintroduced the death penalty for insurance company directors?" "Really?" said Arthur. "No I didn't. For what offence?" Trillian frowned. "What do you mean, offence?"
--Douglas Adams
Vote TJ Templeton for Iowa State House District 3
by happymisanthropy on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:23:23 PM PDT
I suppose, for a company, liberty=profit. CIGNA should be tried for the crime and, if found guilty, sentenced to exist without the possibility of profit.
Yes, the people who ultimately made the choice should also be relieved of the burden of freedom, but without some severe and meaningful threat, the corporate culture will not change.
by justme on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:29:38 PM PDT
Corporate irresponsibility and unaccountability is a problem with ALL mega corporations, not just health insurance. Oil companies pollute. Telecoms screw the consumer. WalMart abuses its employees and drives small retailers out of business. Companies of every stripe do their best to externalize all costs/risks and deliver ever--increasing profits because they are legally required to do so. The individuals who implement these policies are largely protected from personal liability for the results.
That is the root of the problem. Corporations in all areas are out of control, not only health insurance. We just notice it more with health insurance because the consequences are devastating and immediate, as well as very personal.
What's the difference between Vietnam and Iraq? Bush knew how to get out of Vietnam.
by happy camper on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:59:50 PM PDT
